The soldiers in the video were heard laughing as they slaughter the innocent civilians who were trying to help the wounded photographer into the van. Later the Humvee was seen driving over the body of the dead.
even if the said people were enemy combatants, the actions by the American soldiers are against any international war laws.
This is a post by bigkegabeer in reddit. Just thought it was interesting...
I'm military and been right over that neighborhood at a different time; the video may be disturbing but doesn't strike me as unjustifiable. The coverup is what we should save our real vitriol for. I know some of you will immediately dismiss this as you view everyone in the military as inherently evil. I find that silly. (There are also people who think I can do no wrong because I AM and I find that dangerous). Give it a read anyway.
War is an ugly, atrocious action. Bad things happen every day; good things only rarely. It's a waste of money, time, potential, and especially lives. What's in this video is distasteful to say the least, but it's also intentionally inflammatory (presumably so WL gets more clicks, and we all obliged them). This video is from a period of increasing, and increasingly violent, action by insurgents. Mortar and rocket attacks, IEDs/EFPs, executions in the most grotesque manner, were all becoming the norm.
The men you hear are reacting to stress from a variety of sources: lack of sleep because of indirect fire attacks, stress from friends being WIA/KIA, stress from feeling little support from the Iraqis at that time, from being away from home and family. In all that stress, they still behaved according to the rules of engagement. They positively identified small arms (which are a threat) and misidentified an RPG. Had I not known, I would also have called out RPG. It unfortunately looks like it, and that was amplified by the pose he took. WL added in captions to let you know there were cameras to amplify outrage, but having flown around Baghdad in helos everything looks like a threat after they shoot at you.
Shooting the van was also justifiable because the "insurgents" were going to collect their wounded and weapons. Clearly the aircrew were wrong, but not unjustifiably and probably only in hindsight. They followed the ROEs, received approval to fire, and did so efficiently. Further, the initial statements that said they were engaged with a violent group also does not strike me as "cover up." If you've ever been involved with an emergency situation you know the first reports out are usually wrong. The later reports, however, I find repugnant. Events like this make me want to stay in the military because I don't want the bastards trying to cover up what was a horrific mistake thinking I won't be right over their shoulder next time.
I have found virtually all the military members I was with in Iraq serious, professional (at least on duty!), and genuinely concerned for civilians. You saw the soldiers running out with the kids. Genuine concern there, from fathers, older brothers, cousins that know kids like that back home. The amount of work we did to keep civilians out of harms way was breathtaking sometimes because it put us in much more vulnerable situations. I'm good with that. I signed up, they didn't. As for the attitude and demeanor of the aircrew, yep, it's stomach-turning. I did see this on occasion, and it's not something I've seen many redditors say they teach you in training. It's a defense mechanism to deal with the privations and violence you see. Dehumanizing the enemy makes it easier to deal with it. If you've never read or seen a synopsis of On Killing you absolutely should. That's why running over a body was seemingly funny. I'm ashamed to say I've had similar gut reactions of really terrible things, and like those guys I feel awful about it when I reflect.
This post isn't to justify the killings, but hopefully to tone down some of the hyperbole. It's a terrible tragedy; it's a waste; I'd love to see us out of Iraq as soon as feasible. It's not a war crime. It's not 18-year-old kids just wanting to kill people for the fun of it. Now, let's all be pissed together that it took this long to get the real story out. OK, too long of a ramble but I needed to get it off my chest.
Edit: This video was actual scene prior to 2010 so the thread headline is misleading...this particular incident took place in 2007 if i am not mistaken again!
@wtf, did you watch the complete video? If you did, please watch it again. I am not saying that what they did was right because no innocent person deserve to die. After knowing what really happened its easy to blame other people from the comfort of our home or apartment. After reading all those news, we know that innocent person( journalist, his driver and the kids) were involved and were killed. We have the luxury to look at the video over and over again and there was a arrow to show us that there were kids in the van but from that unedited video, I don't really think what they did at that time was totally unjustifiable because from that raw video I couldn't tell if the person sitting on the passenger side of the video was a kid or adult. I agree the incident was indeed unfortunate and sad but I don't think you can totally blame the Apache crew. Yeah, everyone has their opinion and view so you are free to disagree with what I saw in that unedited video.And we are forgetting the fact that they found 'live rpg' on the scene. If they hadn't attacked, they would have been attacked. And did you guys notice how army personals were running with that wounded kid?
By stating this, I am not in anyway supporting what happened. US army should probably change the ROE but they can't blame those apache pilot because they were called to support the land infantry who were being attacked by rpg.
Shonesum, Indeed the hindsight is 20/20. What irked me and most of the people is the reaction to the aftermath. There is difference between excuse and reason. Talking about ROE, in that video you can clearly see the soldier talking about how he wishes the wounded 'insurgent' to pick up the arm, so that he could shoot him. How about the shooting of the people who had come there afterwards to collect the wounded people. I have read countless reasons of the possibility they being there to collect the weapon, which you can not say from the video. Equally, the injured children were asked to be taken to 'IP' hospital, which presumably do not have sophisticated equipments as the Americans hospitals do. Not to mention the press release by the Department of Defense, which degraded the human lives and furthermore verified the common belief of impunity to the soldiers.
The public outrage is justified. However, I am not sure about the perpetration,which to begin with is an occupation.
I wonder why they were being attacked by a rpg?? doh! no shit sherlock they started a war which they had no reason to....never did find any WMD or any link that saddam was ever linked to Al Qaida!! and are now shooting civilian and you expect people to feel sorry for em? go figure!
@shonesum: please watch the video again, and again... AND again. ... so a bystander was just walking by casually around the location of the firefight?... live rpg? the topic of the thread is "colateral murder"... and that being said, i think u shud be able to see it.. if not... ... peace
I will have to agree with raju161. @ wtf First of all you might want to look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=is9sxRfU-ik
At 19:20, someone reports finding an RPG round.
At 32:54, someone asks if it's been defused yet, and is told "no, it's still live"
and if you didn't see that or if you just ignored the fact that they had a 'live rpg' then I guess I am wrong.
@cylengend, its not about whether they should have gone to Iraq, its about the incident that took place in Iraq where everyone are blaming those pilots.
@Bhakundebhut, From the very beginning they thought those guys were terrorist. Even then they didn't shoot at the wounded so that shows that they were following ROE. Yeah, they wanted them him to pick the weapon so they could kill them. Yeah they are wrong doing so.
about taking those kids to IP hospital, it wasn't their call it was the officer's call so you can't blame them for taking them to local hospital. The army on the ground wanted to send the kids to the Rustamiyah so blame the high ranking official for that not the ground unit.
Shonesum, Again, whatever you have said is nothing more than what the apologists have been saying. Yes it is war- a unilateral war. Just by labeling it a tag of war, the US army can not get away from such cold blooded murder. Such an utter disrespect of human lives maybe a routined job for them, but not to the whole civilized world. Throughout the video, I felt like a kid playing a video game. Their mentality of war has been ingrained so deeply that they see everyone as a terrorist, not that it being a mere possibility. That certainty led them to see those cameras as RPGs, innocent Samaritans as accomplices of the insurgents etc. When you say that it's not the pilots are to be blamed, tell me where the buck stops?
Are we going to say the incident is really unfortunate one and sip another cup of tea/coffee. I prefer tea over coffee.
@CyLegend: I am just trying to say that what they did at that time was justifiable. I am in no way supporting the invasion of Iraq. I would revolt against the foreign forces too if it were to invade my homeland. They are just soldiers. What i am trying to say is that they should hold High ranking official responsible for waging war against other country for such a long time without any reason. @wtf, I repeat, instead of watching a edited video please watch full 39-40 min long unedited video and make a comment. Its easy to judge after you know the truth. Moreover, there were definitely few insurgents in that group because they were carrying RPG. @bhukunde bhut, As I have mentioned above, I am not supporting war in Iraq. Even though we are from Nepal, we are paying tax to US government so I agree with you on waging a unilateral war against Iraq. All I am trying to say is that you can't hold the US troop involved in that incident. I would like to disagree with few of your statement. There are moments where they could be blamed for making some disrespectful comment but at a same time they were assuming them to to terrorist or the better term would be insurgents. Yeah i agree that they mistook that camera for rpg but there were few insurgents in that group for sure which is proved by the fact that they are 'live rpg' on the scene.
These people were just walking along the street doing their own thing. They were not hostile. They didn't even look up.. Even after attack there was no sign of hostility or returned fire. It is a known fact that in lot of muslim countries even civilians carry weapons. Also the US army didn't even verify if these were Iraqi government soldiers.
It seems like bunch of trigger happy americans who just wanted to kill people just for the fun of it. It reminded me of a bunch of kids asking permission to play a game. "can we kill? please??"
shooting at the wounded man trying to crawl away, shooting at the van which came to pick up the bodies. The van was shot for no apparent reasons. Are these human beings so condemned that they can't even pick up their dead?
This just shows how the US values lives of people from another country.
Only americans are supposed to have any rights the rest are condemned and can be shot at like animals at some american teenagers whims. This is some sort of racism this is countryism. This is an offshoot of the old white supremacist (race centric) cult to the new americist which is a blend of race and religion world dominance of the - I will do whatever I want and if you have problems with it I am going to shut you the fuq up - order.
The spotter made a huge blunder that got the innocent people killed. still it should be made clear that an invading force will never be right, esp in sensitive issue as such, esp when Iraqis have very little trust in the invading forces, esp where margin of error is low for the invading forces. This is not the first time innocent civilians have been casualty of war in iraq, there has been report throughout the start of the war to present day that civilians have been targeted intentionally or unintentionally in the name of security. In one of the videos in a missile attack, a pedestrian strolls into view completely unaware of what's going on, and the soldier decides to let a hellfire missile slip anyways. Then when people are gathering outside, who look like friendlies to me, they continue to shell the place. Am I missing something? (Although the video has already been removed by youtube I will post it once I find it.)
I might have missed the complete story, but what were those Iraqi reporters doing there when they knew they were under constant vigilant sight of attack from their enemies (American army)? It's one thing to be dutiful and brave reporters (covering stories of war, bringing facts to people across the globe in challenging circumstances) and completely another to be stupid and put your life in peril knowing you might be mistaken for terrorists, especially in a war-time when even innocents could be made scapegoats of the circumstances. War is war - you don't question its fairness. When the country is in war, you don't ask for reasons of the mishaps. That said, may those deads rest in peace!
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