| Username |
Post |
| saroj |
Posted
on 15-Jan-04 08:44 PM
Sounds like a This Day That Age piece, but unfortunate it's this day this age...
Village celebrates arrival of first bus
KOL Report
PALPA, Jan 16 - Locals of Lemdeng Bhanjyang in Devinagar VDC had occasion to rejoice as they welcomed the first bus to reach their village.
Dolendra Gahatraj, the outgoing member of the Palpa DDC, felicitated driver Kajiman Shrestha, who piloted the bus with registration No Lu 1 Kha 2692, after it reached Lemdeng. (yo)
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| saroj |
Posted
on 15-Jan-04 08:56 PM
Religion/culture/tradition is a touchy subject, but if it doesn't make any sense then it does not make any sense. For example over the past few days many have died in Nepal due to extreme cold. AND because of some stupid - yes stupid custom/tradition, these ladies have to bare themselves in the river.
There are just too many useless nonsense cultural practices that non only waste our time but our money too, and even some of our lives. How long are we going to just follow things without asking why. There are hundreds of useless customs and traditions that we can think of.
Even in politics the same group of people who could not do squat few years back becomes the prime minister again and again. Where else does this happen but in our country.
Useless traditions to keep us occupied and busy, and nonsense politics to rob us of our basic necessities.
When do we wake up?
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 15-Jan-04 09:10 PM
Saroj,
Your first posting, I agree. Your second posting: let's differ. These ladies believe in something and they are exercising the freedom to practice their belief. I am not really a believer, but hey, these ladies are. And they deserve a dip in Narayani if they want.
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| saroj |
Posted
on 15-Jan-04 10:03 PM
Biswo,
I'm not questioning their right to practice their belief. I am questioning the practice itself. Maybe it's time to stop doing certain things. Maybe it's time to educate the general population. The same way they learn certain things they can unlearn it or learn new ways.
When George Bush is making plans to have permanent settlement in the moon, many grandmothers and mothers in Nepal are still believing that moon is a god.
People used to believe that the earth was flat but now it's been proven that the earth is not flat and people have to grow up with new discoveries and new realities. One cannot be stuck on to old and antiquated beliefs and hope to make any progress - as we can see by the state of our country.
So let's not be spectators in these nonsense beliefs and educate and change these beliefs. If some people believe that the world is flat and they spend their lives trying to make sure they don't fall off the edge or with the fear of falling over the edge, WE as educated and more experienced people who care about our country, should teach them the truth and show them that the earth is a sphere.
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| Kalekrishna |
Posted
on 15-Jan-04 11:45 PM
Saroj,
with due respect to your views, yes you are right when you say that certain old fashioned beliefs ha to be remodeled (not dumped I guess). There is a long way to go, faiths and beliefs are what is making the poor Nepalese contended and still hanging on with their life. A mother sacrifices her life in poverty thinking one day her son/daughter will make it big ( ridiculed way of thinking from westerners point of view), but can,t help it is deep rooted in our firm beliefs.
There is a need to change, change the way individual life and accomplishments are created not taken as granted on ancestral property. Need of independency, yet one that is under total control of self is what everyone needs to be educated to strive. Need of development as per the best sustainable use of available resources should be the target.
Till, then let the belief and faiths that is helping the Nepalese populace deviate from day to day suffering sooth, and let the catalyst of scientific and spritual education do its job of wiping out those outdated and irrevelent customs and traditions.
KK
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| saroj |
Posted
on 16-Jan-04 06:42 AM
Many customs and traditions practiced today are nothing but waste of time and money. This time and money is better spent on other productive things.
Kalekrishna, you said
"...faiths and beliefs are what is making the poor Nepalese contended and still hanging on with their life."
Do you care to explain?
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| qallu |
Posted
on 16-Jan-04 07:00 AM
"These ladies believe in something and they are exercising the freedom to practice their belief. I am not really a believer, but hey, these ladies are. And they deserve a dip in Narayani if they want."
let's just do a small excercise here and replace a few words....
"These [people] believe in something and they are exercising the freedom to practice their belief. I am not really a believer, but hey, these [people] are. And they deserve [to practice their belief- a dip in Narayani, praying before an altar, reading the ved and thinking it will give enlightenment, bali chadaune] if they want."
:)
Saroj, while I agree that certain practices are archaic and there might even be room to "educate" people. Ultimately though how can you condemn a practice and not the belief? These ladies do their river bathing business because they beleive it cleanses them or washes their sins away. Whatever it is they probably also beleive that if they don't do it, they will suffer.
So the answer is not necessarily to condemn people's belief or practice, rather help people see alternative and educate them about consequences. Let them take responsibility for themselves!
I think the people who are best positioned to do this are NOT "educated" people. Which sounds terribly pompous in the first place. Who is going to want to listen to some young upstart who comes around saying "I am educated, I know better than you." Plus you said "experienced," experienced in what? to the woman taking a dip in the narayani, your being well read or well travelled might not measure up to more, so keep some perspective.
The priests and brahmins are best suited to do that sort of thing... They have the credibility as religious leaders among the people. regardless....
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| thaag |
Posted
on 16-Jan-04 08:02 AM
Can you ask a muslim women to take off her vail??
Can you ask a catholics not to have children every year??
It is about the strongest power that exists--Faith, which draws these men/women to cleanse themselves in cold water.
I disagree with gallu that -->>"I think the people who are best positioned to do this are NOT "educated" people."<<--
I have been to Devghat several times and I consider myself educated. I have seen many doctors, engineers, educated people go there regularly.
Yes you don't see many "educated" teenager boys and girs which you see them regularly in Bakery caf'es.. But there are many belivers who are educated.
Saroj Said
-->>Many customs and traditions practiced today are nothing but waste of time and money. This time and money is better spent on other productive things. <<--
I've heard some people saying "nepal is poor because we are hindu, we would be rich if we were christians", Saroj's statement is similar to that which simply is not true.
Can you suggest what should we do to make ourself more productive
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| saroj |
Posted
on 16-Jan-04 08:22 AM
Not meaning to undermine anyone's beliefs and taking a subjective approach, the statement "nepal is poor because we are hindu, we would be rich if we were christians" might actually hold some water if analyzed through research methods.
Just think about all the wasteful customs. Say in marriage or lot of other occassions.
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| Deep |
Posted
on 16-Jan-04 10:20 AM
"Not meaning to undermine anyone's beliefs and taking a subjective approach, the statement "nepal is poor because we are hindu, we would be rich if we were christians" might actually hold some water if analyzed through research methods.
Just think about all the wasteful customs. Say in marriage or lot of other occassions. "
Are you kidding or what, Saroj ji? Is it fair to assume that you are just speaking your mind for yourself?
khai ke ke ho ke ke? yo riti riwaz ko thekedar ko ho?
Ani ko ho ta chaleka ra chalne riti riwaz ka ganesh man, sarbamanne neta?
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| thaag |
Posted
on 16-Jan-04 10:32 AM
How can you say marriage a wasteful custom????
Name me one society which doesn't spend a lot of money on marriage?? Every culture and society does it, why should nepali be excluded?
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| the other one |
Posted
on 16-Jan-04 10:40 AM
-->>Many customs and traditions practiced today are nothing but waste of time and money<<--
I am not an anthropologist or sociologist, but I feel that.. the way Saroj is looking at our cultural practices as vestigial appendages that can be just hacked off is a bit short sighted. Arnt we in major part (I think) what we are because of what our culture and heritage made us to be?? Is it any different than what we are physically made of? All the strings of DNA with information that made us adept at adapting to the environment, we still carry it. Likewise, the social practices in that time was important for whatever reasons, may have been more important then than what the scientific knowledge has bestowed upon us right now (like questioning our heritage, landing on the moon (for what purpose??) etc.).
If the mothers are taking ablution in cold rivers for their kids well being and we think it is bad then look into how the future of the kids can me made secure, not just go in and say what you are doing is wrong…beliefs and traditions are kept well adhered in our conscious/subconscious in a culture/individual for reasons. If we just go in and try to uproot social/ traditional artifacts then we are no different than the Maoists who are literally and figuratively hacking out what makes Nepal-Nepal and a Nepali-Nepali like it is a harvest season.
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| Biswo |
Posted
on 16-Jan-04 01:50 PM
Saroj,
If someone practices something that doesn't harm others, we are good letting them practice what they want. We are not Taliban, we are not cultural-revolution-era Maoists.
It is also not likely to be 'statistically provable' that we would have been richer had we been Christians. Several African states are Christians, they have more natural resources, and yet they are as poor as, or poorer than, us.
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| Chheten |
Posted
on 16-Jan-04 01:59 PM
Culture is what provides us our identity. Let's never forget that.
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| the other one |
Posted
on 16-Jan-04 02:54 PM
<>
Wasteful customs??, Do you mean to say, stop marriage ceremony and all the religious ceremonies, no dasai? no Tihar? no Holi? and use that time to what?..make living like in an ant colony?..what is more of a waste?
On a personal experience...
I have become a vegetarian since leaving Nepal (for ethical reasons, I meant the veg. part), but when I go back home I dont mind; actually I knowingly walk around the temples with grounds littered in sacrificed animal-blood and feathers. I dont know what that says about me but the faculty in my brain does evoke religio-cultural rapture that steps over my conscience. Look within yourself my friend, however denegrated you might think our cultureal practices are, it does stick on your subconcious in ways you cannot tell.
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| lonely1 |
Posted
on 16-Jan-04 05:05 PM
Saroj no proselytizing here on the sajhapur, ok? Or what do you mean by "Not meaning to undermine anyone's beliefs and taking a subjective approach, the statement "nepal is poor because we are hindu, we would be rich if we were christians" might actually hold some water if analyzed through research methods." Are you crazy?
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| ALLY74 |
Posted
on 16-Jan-04 06:12 PM
Speaking of "HOLI", this fetival has degraded a lot recently. In the name of religion lots of women face basically nightmare during holi season and We all know why.
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| KaleKrishna |
Posted
on 17-Jan-04 04:27 AM
Saroj,
the explanation about:
Kalekrishna, you said
"...faiths and beliefs are what is making the poor Nepalese contended and still hanging on with their life."
Do you care to explain?
Was more precisely naratted by fellow contribuiters, yes a different cultural identity, tradition, customs makes us different from other fellow homeo sapiens with whom we share 99% and more similarity in genetic makeup.
When I said that these customs and faiths are holding the life and social fabric, I (with limited success) tried to look it from the eyes of those simple and hardworking peoples who are our baba, amas to do what is righteous, feel the fear of sin, live a life of virtue no matter what hardship befalls them.
Nepali simplicity and honesty, hardworking and contention was based on those faiths and beliefs. It is different story that the later generation adultrated with selfish exposures made mess of it. There is nothing wrong with the belief and customs, some needs timely modification, but they were not there purposeless, atleast for the time when those were designed for.
Hence, if even Baburam whose ideology is potrayed as an anticulturaist had to bow to his mothers faith and cultural belief, I for my part have seen enough subjugation of my cultural upbringing unexperienced by most of you. That makes me more aware what you miss when you don,t have one, and the others claim you alien to their culture.
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| saroj |
Posted
on 17-Jan-04 06:31 AM
Ok before we get too sidetracked let me remind you that the issue is about SOME customs and traditions that we need to get rid of. I never said ALL customs and traditions are stupid!
Like ALLY74 brought up, holi is an example of a custom that is not only stupid it's outrageous. Perverse boys and men target helpless females with their balloons out in the open. In our customs and traditions we seem to forget many times that women should have the same rights as men.
Our culture/traditions are very discriminatory. Well hundreds of years ago wifes had to drink the water from their husbands legs because of what priests and religious lawmakers ordained upon the simple uneducated mass. If in this day and age, if you choose to find your identity in such outdated discriminatory customs and cultural practices, then you are fueling the downward spiraling of the Nepali civilization instead of accepting that some practices are OUTRIGHT WRONG.
Regarding marriage, I am not saying stop the institution of marriage! I am talking about the excessive wasteful practices surrounding marriage. Even in todays day and age, families with many daughters have to go through a lot of mental stress because of the fact that inspite of dowry being illegal, the practice still exists. Brothers and fathers of young girls still worry about how to marry off thier daughters not known what kind of requirements will be levied by the prospective groom.
Some of our cultural practices traditions are so discriminatory.
Just look at the caste system. What kind of fuqed up system is that? The worst part is that it is still practiced. Different ethnic groups practically look down upon other ethnic groups. Is this the kind of cultural practices that provide you your identity?
What I propose is for us to move on. We need to move on from what our uneducated forefathers created as religious/cultural rules that do NOT make any sense today.
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| Xanthipee |
Posted
on 17-Jan-04 07:05 AM
"When George Bush is making plans to have permanent settlement in the moon, many grandmothers and mothers in Nepal are still believing that moon is a god. "
But Americans treat money, sex, drug, alcohol as god. I would rather worship moon than those.
"WE as educated and more experienced people who care about our country, should teach them the truth and show them that the earth is a sphere. "
Your arrogance and self-righteousness is more spherical (and hence no end) than the earth. Why don't you learn that first and then talk about the earth?
"This time and money is better spent on other productive things."
If your model is america, then other productive things mean going to bars, las vegas, and sex. Be more productive onwards in this way.
"nepal is poor because we are hindu, we would be rich if we were christians" might actually hold some water if analyzed through research methods.
Oh you the father of science and rationality! What is stopping you from conducting those researches? BTW, do you care to explain it to others? May be you will get nobel prize someday for your religioous contribution to economics.
Some points:
Holi is unholy but Halloween is scientific. You should not visit your parents because it is the waste of time and money. Be productive man. Drink the blood of Jesus and pee on the panchamrit. Cutting a cake in birthday is scientific but celebrating janmotsab is stupid. Hi dad and mom, can you move out of my place? I need my place for me and my upteenth girl friend. I will place a flower in you coffine when you die. By the way what color you prefer? I love you so much. Parents are God?? You must be kidding. I want to rape my mother -my favorite singer Eminem says so.
Britney's ass and madonna's boob are so spherical that we need to teach the stupid people of Nepal about this truth. They may think it is flat. Poor people.
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| qallu |
Posted
on 17-Jan-04 08:31 AM
Xanthipee
I have no idea where you live currently or whether you have lived in the states ever. and if you have what sort of folks you must have come across.... however, from my experince i can say that the assertion "But Americans treat money, sex, drug, alcohol as god" most absurd.
Lets not fall prey to hyperbole and defensiveness. Saroj's assertion about hindus and christian's and about being educated and having the moral authority to "teach" people and discern what is progressive vs. backward is obnoxious, but swingging to the other extreme when reacting to him is simply caving in. It would be more interesting to see people discuss the issue at hand and not give into sarcasm and hyperbole.
Sure there is las vegas and sex and materialism and capitalism, but to think that those things are the end all be all for Americans (all or even a majority of them) is ridiculous. It just makes you look silly for saying it.
And the whole thing about sex might deserve another discussion. Pro
miscuity is of course not desireable, and there is too much of that going on in the states. However, being sexually repressed (and if I were to fall to my own hyperbole I would say here.. like most Nepalis) is not desirable either... so... lets leave that for another day.
Keep perspective people.
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| Qqest |
Posted
on 17-Jan-04 10:23 AM
I totally agree with Saroj, if there is something wrong in our tradition it is wrong. No need to glorify stupidity. He is not saying that we need to get rid of our tradition all together, he is trying to state the fact that there are so many unneccessary other craps that come along with our religion and it does not make any sense at all. For example dowry. In the name of institution of marriage a middle class family has to go thru a lot. In the name of "Holi", many women are basically abused. Everything is not just right just because it is a cultural practices. It has to be positive and something we can be proud of. But again conservative will do what they wanna do anyways.
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| nepali_angel |
Posted
on 17-Jan-04 11:12 AM
Tradition can actually survive without endangering our steps to modernization. Hell, as far as I am concerned Christianity is more of an obstruction to advances in science than paganism, or Hinduism for that matter, and we all are certainly privy to Europe's seperation-of-church-and-state past, else, I doubt Westerners would have made such tremendous gains that they were able to. Hinduism does not hold any such thoughts that avert progress. Evolution was/is such a big controversy in Western societies(well America mostly coz Europe is pretty atheistic) as it contradicts creationism. I particularly don't see any such destructive or baneful views that Hinduism has. If they wan to dip in water, then let it be. I have no idea how that would keep developments on a choke hold.
Also, keep in mind that just because one is superstitious doesn't mean he also has to be religious. It is superstition that might hinder our growth, but making insinuation that "nepal is poor because we are hindu" is ludicrous. Kerala the Christian+ most literate state isn't faring as well, for if I am correct, on economic measures like per capita income, it is almost on the bottom.
Another thing is that we get too many days off in Nepal. It is one thing to declare a day a holiday, but another to shut everything down for celebration. One month for Dashain is RIDICULOUS. We should declare the days as holidays, but we don't have to close things down for a month. Monday is Martin Luther King's day, and I am certain the government is closed, but my workplace has made it known that we all have to be there that day.
Dowry has nothing to do with Hinduism. Dipping in water is a part of our religion, but that doesn't really hinder strides we are making. The Caste system, however is a skewed version of the original caste system as postulated in the Vedas, according to which one is of a certain caste by one's doings. So yes, the caste system should not have been made so static in the first place. Also, another thing is, the Caste Sytem is not a Hindu problem, but rather societal.
Most people enjoy Holi, I think, regardless of gender. It is one Nepali Holiday that I actually like.
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| SITARA |
Posted
on 17-Jan-04 11:52 AM
Myths, mythologies, rites, rituals and traditions!!! Ah such complex issues to chew upon and generalize simplistically into the West vs the East! If I recall, Joseph Campbell, one of the most celebrated researcher and writer on these topics, attempted to ressurect the credibility of myths and rituals by tying such with the subconscious human need to control the unknowns. Can we name it superstition?... I don't know, Jungians give such, a psychoanalytical approach; again tying rites and rituals to the needs of the human psyche. We could call it Faith. Whatever the terminology, rites and rituals whether in the East or West ( all the cardinal points, if you please) always had their purpose suitable to the time, space and necessity.
Tying all and sundry to science, logic or rationality is illogical to say the least. "Halloween" was begun to celebrate the souls of the deceased, something akin to our "Gai Jatra". Who can one really blame for the highly "entertaining" ways both are celebrated today? "Holi" a celebration of Spring, rebirth, renewal, falls close to Basant Panchami ( day of Saraswati: a day celeberating learning) has become a season of menace/harrassment for anyone walking the streets. It is unpalatable within its own context and Hindu culture. Does it necessitate a comparision with the West...I don't think so. Taking a dip in Ganga and Bagmati WAS auspicious; a symbol of purifying one's body and soul but it does become unhygienic and consequently dangerous when both the rivers are polluted by chemical and human waste. So, where does Faith compare with common sense? I can understand the point Saroj is trying to make in that some practices can be dangerous and even fatal to human health. Yes, let them do it if they want to...they are entitled to their faith and rituals BUT are they also entitled to the knowlege that the rivers are polluted/contaminated? At this point, are the women bathing in the "holy" rivers educated consumers of culture or ignorant consumers of traditions? The middle ground between the two polarities: Tradition and Science, is education and common sense.
Every culture (East and the West) comes with its own package. Cultural and traditional expressions/practices when taken to the extremes bode ill for everyone. Madonna's rearend does little to express the moral decadence of the West as does the "Kamasutra" illustrate much on the "conservativeness" of the East.
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| nepali_angel |
Posted
on 17-Jan-04 02:17 PM
There is a difference between mythologies/rites/rituals/traditions and superstition. Superstition, to give you an example, is when you believe water shouldn't be drunk when you're suffering from diarrhea. This superstition can hinder the medical community from curing people's diseases and is absolutely MALIGNANT. This is a good example of superstition that has absolutely no ties to religion. Rites/rituals on the other hand can be GOOD depending on the situation. Rites/rituals can have superstitious origin, but are mostly speaking BENIGN. For instance, suppose a famine is plaguing a certain region, and you do a rain dance, believing that perhaps it will rain because of your little antic. And lo! indeed it did rain. Thenceforth, everytime there is famine, you do a raindance. Hey, it might not work, but at least you are going to feel better. Also, praying to God during times of peril can help many believers feel better because it acts like a placebo. So, yes, rites and rituals will help you feel better when everything around you is failing. So to me, dipping in water doesn't seem like it is hindering anything/anybody at all, except of course your own life, if water is contaminated with potent radioactive pollutants and what not. But that depends on which river you're talking about.
Also, isn't throwing LOLA only only in Nepal? I don't think Indians throw lolas during holi. If so is the case, then our version of holi only needs reform. We need to control some aspects of it. Make throwing lolas illegal, maybe?
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| thugged out |
Posted
on 19-Jan-04 02:03 PM
Saroj, you said,
"When George Bush is making plans to have permanent settlement in the moon,"
Hahahahahah. Man you're so funny.
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| saroj |
Posted
on 19-Jan-04 08:21 PM
Don't get so anally retentive people. Just a humble request to think about some parts of our cultural practices that don't make any sense in today's day and age. No need to get all riled up hullo!
If you agree with all the cultural practices in our country, then you need to get your head examined.
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